Police shooting innocent civilians

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Watcher
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An audio was released of some

An audio was released of some black guys who saw the incident and they said that Brown was walking away from the officer and the officer went after Brown. Brown turned and charged the officer who shot at Brown several times. The bystander said the cop kept missing because Brown kept coming at him. There is speculation that brown was hit several times but kept charging because he was doped up on something. Anyway, this story is the same as that told by the cop who shot Brown.

Here is the transcript:

An approximate transcription of the background conversation, as related by the “Conservative Treehouse” blog:
@6:28/6:29 of video
#1 How’d he get from there to there?
#2 Because he ran, the police was still in the truck – cause he was like over the truck
{crosstalk}
#2 But him and the police was both in the truck, then he ran – the police got out and ran after him
{crosstalk}
#2 Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him –
#1. Oh, the police got his gun
#2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him
{crosstalk}
#2 Police fired shots – the next thing I know – the police was missing
#1 The Police?
#2 The Police shot him
#1 Police?
#2 The next thing I know … I’m thinking … the dude started running … (garbled something about “he took it from him”)

This is terribly important because if Mike Brown had been shot, and he advanced towards the cop instead of surrendering, it would substantiate the narrative that the policeman shot in self-defense due to the fact that he was being threatened with severe bodily harm.

This corroborates an account of the event given by a friend of Officer Darren Wilson:

johnw
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If Brown was unarmed.....no

If Brown was unarmed.....no knife , no gun,no club and was running away from the police why was deadly force called for?
I'm hopeful that the police will show us a compelling reason for shooting this person.....other than he was running away..If he was truly standing there with his hands up and they shot him ..... put the cop away.Whether Brown was a punk or not has no bearing on the cop using deadly force... It's been a few days and the cops aren't forthcoming with their side ........ that should make people uneasy.

I have an uneasy feeling about these kinds if shootings , sort of like the uneasy feeling I get when police engage in high speed chases where innocent people end up dead.....

thejohnchapman
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Johnw: Are you serious?

Johnw: Are you serious? Think how easily you could choke and kill the average twelve year old, with your bare hands. Size disparity alone is enough, if indeed the disparity is great. Few that haven't taken my course have seen the video here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vFcpQQiSTg

Then there's this: http://www.odmp.org/officer/21429-patrolman-jonathan-keith-molina

In no state is an officer forbidden from shooting a suspect simply because he lacks a weapon, if the person otherwise has the ability to kill the officer bare handed. Same is true for private citizens. In Maine, in your home, you need not even think you will be killed or seriously injured. You can kill a guy simply to prevent the infliction of any pain.

Was Michael Brown a "big guy"? The surveillance video released so far seems to show that. As to the ACTUAL FACTS, I don't know them. Neither do you. That usually doesn't stop the usual suspects at AMG from speculating in the face of admitted obvious ignorance because their "gut" (a place filled with noxious gas and feces) tells them what they have no idea about.

johnw
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TJC... all I know is that

TJC... all I know is that there are a lot of cops who are over the edge..... ....... I'm not saying brown was a good guy.,...but we sure as hell aren't getting the an accounting from the Ferguson police.....if they have zippo to hide then a full accounting should have been made public immediately....." In no state is an officer forbidden from shooting a suspect simply because he lacks a weapon, if the person otherwise has the ability to kill the officer bare handed."
One of my sons got in a little scuffle with the police in CA ..I guess I'm lucky he's still breathing.....he's big and he's strong .... and he's mouthy...... I guess that's would be a good reason to blow someone away..... but maybe because he's blond , blue eyed and white he's still breathing..,...?

Rebecca
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I am probably one of the more

I am probably one of the more critical posters on police militarization. In this instance, I would advise the more cautious approach. There is a lot of misinformation and misperceptions everywhere. There are a lot of people who are taking advantage of the situation to promote bigotry and increase the amount of violent behavior for their own purposes.

It will be interesting to see just how Holder and company try to involve themselves lawfully or if instead the attempt is made to railroad the cop and the police in an openly bigoted and racist "investigation".

Bruce Libby
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I read Holder has called for

I read Holder has called for a "federal autopsy" on subject.
That just requires some thought and speaks volumes !
Is anyone questioning subject was shot and died?

Rebecca
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Specifications for a Federal

Specifications for a Federal Autopsy

37.203 Autopsy specifications.
(a) Every autopsy for which a claim
for payment is submitted pursuant to
this part:
(1) Shall be performed consistent
with standard autopsy procedures such
as those, for example, set forth in the
‘‘
Autopsy Manual
’’
prepared by the
Armed Forces Institute of Pathology,
July 1, 1960. (Technical Manual No. 8

300. NAVMED P

5065, Air Force Manual
No. 160

19.) Copies of this document
may be borrowed from ALFORD.
(2) Shall include:
(i) Gross and microscopic examina-
tion of the lungs, pulmonary pleura,
and tracheobronchial lymph nodes;
(ii) Weights of the heart and each
lung (these and all other measurements
required under this subparagraph shall
be in the metric system);
(iii) Circumference of each cardiac
valve when opened;
(iv) Thickness of right and left ven-
tricles; these measurements shall be
made perpendicular to the ventricular
surface and shall not include
trabeculations or pericardial fat. The
right ventricle shall be measured at a
point midway between the tricuspid
valve and the apex, and the left ven-
tricle shall be measured directly above
the insertion of the anterior papillary
muscle;
(v) Size, number, consistency, loca-
tion, description and other relevant de-
tails of all lesions of the lungs;
(vi) Level of the diaphragm;
(vii) From each type of suspected
pneumoconiotic lesion, representative
microscopic slides stained with hema-
toxylin eosin or other appropriate
stain, and one formalin fixed, paraffin-
impregnated block of tissue; a min-
imum of three stained slides and three
blocks of tissue shall be submitted.
When no such lesion is recognized,
similar material shall be submitted
from three separate areas of the lungs
selected at random; a minimum of
three stained slides and three formalin
fixed, paraffin-impregnated blocks of
tissue shall be submitted.
(b) Needle biopsy techniques shall
not be used.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2002-title42-vol1/pdf/CFR-2002-title42-...

I just can't seem to find where the victims race is listed as an important part of the examination. Or that of the person who may have been a contributing factor in the cause of death. Perhaps I am missing something.

thejohnchapman
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Wounds in hands arms

Wounds in hands arms consistent with them NOT being raised, powder stippling (distance indicator), wound direction, front or back entrance, or both, all might indicate something useful about the event. It is information that we don't have.

thejohnchapman
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For anyone interested, here's

For anyone interested, here's the legal standard.
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap563.htm

Law enforcement officer's use of force in making an arrest.
563.046. 1. A law enforcement officer need not retreat or desist from efforts to effect the arrest, or from efforts to prevent the escape from custody, of a person he reasonably believes to have committed an offense because of resistance or threatened resistance of the arrestee. In addition to the use of physical force authorized under other sections of this chapter, he is, subject to the provisions of subsections 2 and 3, justified in the use of such physical force as he reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or to prevent the escape from custody.

2. The use of any physical force in making an arrest is not justified under this section unless the arrest is lawful or the law enforcement officer reasonably believes the arrest is lawful.

3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only

(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or

(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested

(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or

(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or

(c) May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.

4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

Mike G
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Was there a dash cam or not?

Was there a dash cam or not? and if there was a dash cam why hasn't it been released? Who do they have for witnesses?

If there is a dash cam, why are the cops micromanaging the release of other videos and tapes?

Bruce Libby
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Answer to all the above is

Answer to all the above is because there is no compulsion to feed others voyeurism with things pertinent to investigation.

charlie neville
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In other words, the cops have

In other words, the cops have determined what they want the outcome to be and will release only info that leads to that conclusion. Sure seems that way to me.

charlie

thejohnchapman
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Mike:

Mike:

So long as there is a potential witness out there who has not yet been interviewed, and who is known, details are not likely to be released to that witness. If he / she does not know what's out there, he / she cannot craft a statement to match the known evidence. There is no reason, consistent with good investigative technique, to do otherwise.

There may be political reasons or psychological reasons to do otherwise. These are not investigative reasons.

Bruce Libby
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Charlie

Charlie
Yes it does seem that way,but hat doesn't make it so.
Perceptions are based on many things. Preconceived notions can be one of them /

Roger S
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We have some of that info now

We have some of that info now with the release by the Brown family of the independent autopsy conducted by Dr. Baden. Brown was shot six times from the front, four in the arm, two to the head. Some of the shots to the arm exited the arm and entered the chest and lungs. No powder burns on body, though Baden did not have access to the clothing. No indication of physical altercation.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/crowds-thin-in-ferguson-as-midnight-curfe...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-...

charlie neville
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Obviously preconceptions play

Obviously preconceptions play a part, Bruce. In this instance I think it's the preconceptions of the police which drive the investigation of this event. They have an outcome in mind they want to be the final one.

charlie

Bruce Libby
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If you are assuming they want

If you are assuming they want a exoneration of officer that might be the desired end.
They probably want a finding based on truth as unpleasant as that may be in end.
That would be a finding of justification,read MO. law posted by TJC , that would be not helpful at this time
of course.
If they arrest officer and charge him and it was a justified shooting that serves no one and he is tried and found innocent
that serves justice, but not parents. Of course the community will use it for whatever purpose to blame everything except their own failings.
Right now everybody is looking for "justice" but it is a one-sided view to serve their purposes.

Authorities while being accused of deception of course are running into the appeasement mode.

thejohnchapman
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Charlie, if Eric Holder's

Charlie, if Eric Holder's minions exonerate the officer, what then? Isn't that like the Klan exonerating the ANC re a specific event?

thejohnchapman
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BTW, the autopsy

BTW, the autopsy preliminaries SEEM to contradict the "shot with his hands up" pseudoinfo that's out there (reportedly).

Jeffersonian
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I don't think Eric "my people

I don't think Eric "my people" Holder's Justice Dept.'s autopsy is for the purpose of exonerating Officer Wilson. Their autopsy is the THIRD one performed on Brown. I guess the results just don't match the Narrative of racist cops killing Black While Walking.

Maybe they're going to keep doing them until they get the results that they want...and the Obama campaign and his MSM "journalist" boot lickers hope for. Haven't we've seen this movie before?

Bruce Libby
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Heard also today autopsy

Heard also today autopsy found indication of marijuana use .

Roger S
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Reefer madness!

Reefer madness!

taxfoe
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Indeed, Roger S, reefer

Indeed, Roger S, reefer madness!

From a drug test manufacturer:

SOURCE

Detection times for marijuana usage vary depending on the drug potency, tolerance, and health condition, fluid intake at time of test, method and frequency of marijuana use. It is usually not more than 15-20 days for chronic users and 3-5 days for occasional smokers. People who are overweight keep THC traces longer, as marijuana metabolites are fat soluble.
_____________________________________________________________

Can you recommend a whine to go with your red herring, Bruce?

Bruce Libby
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Not anything but what I heard

Not anything but what I heard .
List it with he was shot in back and everything else to many except are swallowing hook line and sinker .

No whine I can just sit back and read the wonderful posts you make.
Most of which are red herrings in there own right IMO

By the way I administered a drug testing program at MCC a years a few ago
I do not know anything except the three testing processes used were all weighted in favor of the subject tested.
The two machine test we used were the Siva Emit system ,and Abbott Labs .
If you researched it enough I would believe it is common practice for manufactures of tests to go with the
more restrictive detection times ,to enhance reliability and validity of the testing methodology.
You didn't expound but were these machine tests or field tests ( usually dip test median in urine sample ) tests ?

The report I heard made a connection between what was stolen from store and the above I posted,
You could have asked but but then Roger S would have been all alone with his post.
But that would have been to much I suppose.
That would be considered a Red Herring just like the title of this entire thread.

Mike G
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TJC

TJC

There may be political reasons or psychological reasons to do otherwise.

exactly, there is a political reason to release the Dash Cam and it would be to stop the riots or if failing that at least show that the Cops were in the right to many. The Police Dept has caused us to doubt their actions, why wouldn't they want to put those suspicions to rest?

Is it worthwhile to have civil unrest, property damage, murder in order to make a case. I would say not. I'd say the citizens of Ferguson would say not, unless they are wanting to trade up their TV

johnw
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Although I am not an advocate

Although I am not an advocate of the benefits of smoking dope..... seriously now if they had of said brown showed evidence of meth instead of pot in his blood stream I might be able to buy into the drug induced frenzy theory.....Smoking some dope? Maybe he just wanted to give the officer a big gentle giant hug...who knows..... Four bullets in the arm and two in the head.......??? If the assailant was charging the officer , why didn't he shoot him in the leg??? .....Time to release the video .....

Jeffersonian
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IF there is a dash cam video,

IF there is a dash cam video, it would not have stopped the rioting, anymore than the Assault & Battery video of gigantic thug, Mike Brown, pushing around the tiny store clerk did just prior to his confrontation with the policeman.

Al Sharpton would have denounced any video evidence that doesn't support his Tawana Brawley like racist narrative and lies about racist police shooting innocent black men.

The rioters looted and burned because they thought they could get away with it. It should have been met with overwhelming force from the beginning. It wasn't.

And the "militarized police" meme is a red herring. That didn't cause the riot. The prospect of cost free looting after putting a black AA police Captain in charge made things worse. The foolish Democrat Governor who did it, Jay Nixon, finally had to call in a (white) State Police Col. and the National Guard to regain control.

The Ferguson MO rioting is right out of the sixties like Detroit, which was only subdued by the 82nd Airborne. Real military using military tactics.

It will probably have the same political result in November. I don't think Mr and Mrs suburban American are buying the white liberal/libertarian (Rand Paul's nonsense talk) of a militarized police narrative or Sharpton's black racist demogugery. They've heard and seen this all before.

thejohnchapman
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"why didn't he shoot him in

"why didn't he shoot him in the leg???"

Why not one in each ankle? Indeed, why not pin his foot to the pavement with a ninja throwing spike? How about: "because that crap only works in the movies?" You really ought to teach armed self defense. You'd have a truly "unique" approach, because you would be the ONLY one teaching it.

Rebecca
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http://www.thetruthaboutguns

SUB-JP-BROWN-2-master495.jpg

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/08/daniel-zimmerman/breaking-micha...

I can see why it took a lot of shots to stop Brown. Hitting the arm is not going to do the job. It's a shame that the people in Ferguson couldn't wait to hear more details before showing themselves to be the opportunists and thieves that humanity can develop.

johnw
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So TJC somehow shooting him

So TJC somehow shooting him in the arm was going to effectively slow down this charging giant of a man? And I'm just asking 'so there's no need for a snarky retort.... What if he did have his arms raised and the officer was shooting at him and hit his arms four time before he hit him in the head..... ? Time to see the video...... And I agree 100% with Rebecca as to rioters out there this is just an opportunity to loot and destroy...

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