UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

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Henry Clay
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

One common misconception is that Chavez is a dictator. This is not true, Kabche said. While he originally led a coup against the Venezuelan government, he was imprisoned when it failed. While Chavez was in prison, the president was impeached in a corruption scandal. Another coup took place, toppling the regime and putting Chavez into power.

But then Chavez made a move that made him a "heroic symbol" to Venezuelans, Kabche said. He made several reforms, including dissolving the Venezuelan Congress to be replaced by a National Assembly, and then resigning from the military to run for election. He won, and has been called to special elections several times by the opposition party, but has remained in office.

Chavez was part of a lower social class, and Kabche described him as "a practically illiterate person who educated himself for his entire life," and continues to educate himself while in office. Class still creates "a notion of distinction" in Venezuela, more so than in the United States., Kabche said. But he explained that one could still move from one class to another.

[url=http://www.mainecampus.com/media/storage/paper322/news/2006/11/06/News/V... for Chavez[/url]

eagleisland
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

Marxist studies class. Oh, goodie.

Regardless, I would have to concur that Chavez is not a dictator - yet. He's showing clear signs in that direction, however; he uses the threat of loss of employment to ensure that government employees stay true, and he's already made clear that the can see himself in office for 20 years, despite having been responsible for term limit legislation early in his presidency.

He's not a dictator. But he shows promise. :roll:

mainemom
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

OK, call him a tyrant.

Frostman
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

Despot maybe?

Henry Clay
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

I am partial to socialist "thug" myself

Anonymous
UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

I know I'm jumping into boiling water now, but Bush is doing very well at being parallel to some prominent past tyrants and dictators.

For all the ways Chavez disabled other parts of government, Bush has moved a huge amount of power into the Executive Branch, and effectively himself.

Chavez had the Enabling Act, Bush has a combination of Signing statements and unprecedented Executive Orders, and my personal favorite lassification of previously public documents. The Executive Branch now claims the right to dictate whether the Judicial branch is allowed to be invovled. We say we don't torture, but I can't imagine what waterboarding is besides torture. The right to remain silent is supposed to be sacred. While Chavez's elections have been cited as fraudulent, here in our country we have all the joy of Diebold machines which are questionable, to be put lightly. 2004 Elections resulted in vote counts in certain districts that were higher than the number of registered voters, which was never reconciled. It's rather suprising how fast we abandoned the theory of exit polls being reliable. To be considered extremely reliable for decades or longer, and then out in left field in one election and not an anomoly bearing further investigation is a curious thing.

We now have an American Government telling its courts that we can't investigate if American citizens are illegally monitored (see AT&T wiretapping case), that citizens can be declared enemy combatants, and that enemy combatatants can be held without Habeus Corpus.

Ask yourself also, if in all sincerity, is the institution of American-backed Jalal Talabani very different from that of Hugo Chavez?

You can also check out this: [url=http://digg.com/tech_news/Federal_automated_targetting_database_offlimit... URL to Digg[/url]
Which leads to [url=http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061103-8143.html?refcnx]Long link to Ars Technica[/url]
Which sites a government site: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/06-9026.htm -- giving us a very valid source.
(Edited to keep long links from causing page-wrap issues)

Roger S
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

Moonbat sighting. :shock:

Anonymous
UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

Check my sources and your history. What many people call a conspiracy theory has a funny way of being true. Tell me where I'm wrong, give me your sources. You may begin by saying anything I've said above is not true, citing what it is, and what you have to substantiate that.

gopcollegestudent
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

Interesting Chavez and Bush...

They are not anything alike but nice try to compare them...

I'd take Bush over Chavez any day..

Anonymous
UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

False dilemna, GOP.

The personalities of Chavez and Bush are disimilar, but the consolidation of power away from other branches of government are not so disparate as to be past comparison.

HBO was courteous enough to release a documentary yesterday that I'm not yet finished watching, but here is the source: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7236791207107726851&q=hacking+d...

Bonus points to HBO for finding a Republican local-level candidate whose election count was affected.

GWU is nice enough to provide background for reclassification of documents. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB179/

gopcollegestudent
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

You fail American Politics 101- The other two branches of government keep the President in check...Congress would never pass their power onto the president..Nor would the courts..

Now, I am very tired so I must get some sleep no time to debate this the night before a big election.. D

Anonymous
UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

I only fail if I do not understand the spirit of it. I understand they're supposed to be seperate and provide checks and balances. Despite this, we have the Military Commisions Act, passed in recent weeks.

[quote]Section 948c of title 10 U.S.C., as added by the Act, states, "Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by military commission under this chapter" - with "alien" defined in section 948a(3) as "a person who is not a citizen of the United States".
A "competent tribunal" is defined in the US Army field Manual, section 27-10, for the purpose of determining whether a person is or is not entitled to prisoner-of-war status and consists of a board of not less than three officers. It is also a term defined in Article five of the third Geneva Convention. However, the rights guaranteed by the Third Geneva Convention to lawful military combatants are expressly denied to unlawful military combatants for the purposes of this Act by Section 948b:
`(g) Geneva Conventions Not Establishing Source of Rights- No alien unlawful enemy combatant subject to trial by military commission under this chapter may invoke the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights.[/quote]

Further, it's an ex-post facto law (eep)
[quote]`(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.[/quote]

Congress in passing this law has dictated that the Executive Branch may determine the right of a person to have a trial in front of the Judiciary Branch, and may hold its own trial.

You have not argued my point, gopcollegestudent. It would appear greater than half of Congress should be held guilty of failing a 101 class, yes?

EJ
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

Err Jeff F:

"The right to remain silent is supposed to be sacred." Terrorist do not have miranda rights.

Do you oppose the Patriot Act?

" It's rather suprising how fast we abandoned the theory of exit polls being reliable. To be considered extremely reliable for decades or longer, and then out in left field in one election and not an anomoly bearing further investigation is a curious thing. "

Exit polls are just that Polls, not the way we vote. They have not been anything other than statistical attempts at reaching a conclusion before the results have been released.

Do you happen to know the standard error or methodology of those polls? They are anything but truely random.

EJ

Anonymous
UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

[quote]Terrorist do not have miranda rights.[/quote]
Corrolary: Murderers do not have Miranda rights. Felons do not Miranda rights. Miranda, by the way, is not where that right is granted, but rather from the 5th Amendment. [quote] No person... shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself[/quote]

Tell me how you make the determination of a terrorist? Tell me further what ensures that evidence will never lead somebody to suspect that you are a terrorist.

Further, of my own personal opinion, since you ask, I do oppose the PATRIOT Act. I'll start with my contest of National Security Letters.

I do not pretend to conclude from a discrepency in exit polls the full result of an election. I do say, from an audit perspective, that when something which is previously considered a reliable indicator is completely wrong that further scrutiny be applied to both the election and the polling. We instead discarded the polling and said "oops."

We encourage auditing of our State and our suspect of the financial numbers produced because there is not adequate independent review. Why do we not apply the same scrutiny to voting? We are tracing counts that are vital in both situations.

EJ
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

watch the twin towers fall again, and people jumping to their death and tell me why you want to give Terrorist rights we only give our citzens?

Terrorists are not US citizens for the most part, and therefore are not given the same rights as us citizens.

EJ

Tom C
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

[quote="Jeff Ferland"]the right of a person [/quote]

This "person" you speak of is not you. Nor it is me, your aunt Phylis or Cindy Sheehan.

It is an ENEMY COMBATANT.

I guess you think we should have dragged Saddam into the Cumberland Country Courthouse and given him a trial in-between the traffic ticket pleadings and the drug cases.

[quote="Jeff Ferland"] It would appear greater than half of Congress should be held guilty of failing a 101 class, yes?[/quote]

Congress is doing just fine with the Civics 101.

You, on the other hand, are coming across like a lunatic.

No offense, you understand, sir.

Anonymous
UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

The person I speak of is not me, but it is still a person. We say that we are given certain inalienable rights by our creator, but that they don't apply to people who aren't citizens? EJ, watch the serfs riot again and tell me why we should treat them with the honor we give to noblemen?

While I won't say Saddam's trial is a perfect shining example of justice, he was tried in his own land by his own people. He was convicted without being tortured for evidence.

I find it so depressing that you tell me come across as a lunatic for saying it is not right to torture a person. I find it further depressing that the arguments to what I've said have been "ZONK! THE TEWWOOWISTS!!!111." An emotional appeal to watching the deaths of 3,000 people is not justification for the rights of citizens that we've compromised since then, much less those who weren't born in this country who we're starting to take a stance of calling beneath us.

I tell you last that an airline will never be hijacked like that again for reasons having nothing to do with airport security. It was universally understood before Sept. 11, 2001 that if your plane was hijacked, you just waited it out until they landed somewhere. The difference between then and now is that knife, gun, or any other weapon will not save a hijacker from the 300 people who are all planning to beat the hell out of you on that plane instead of waiting for you to make demands.

eagleisland
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

Jeff, I haven't the time right now to do the research necessary to respond to your post. This said, I will congratulate you for presenting your views in an articulate and interesting way.

I WILL take the time to respond to your exit poll theory. Exit polls have been suspect since their creation - and it is important to remember that they are a creation of big media, which needs (well, desires) a mechanism by which it can keep eyeballs glued to tubes while the process of vote counting is underway.

Exit polls are, at their core, a marketing gimmick.

With that established, I would point out that exit polls are also far less accurate in their basic construction than random-dial telephone surveys, in that exit pollsters cannot cover every precinct, that time of day is a factor, as are the personal biases of the pollsters (their own biases can factor in to whom they approach).

That the very media outlets that created exit polling have backed away from them and raised their own alarm bells about them speaks volumes. If the system's creators recognize the problem with them, then you can bet there's a problem.

The complicating issue here is the dramatically polarized nature of the electorate. It's interesting to note that those making the most noise about them are Democrats, who, in 2000 and 2004, assumed that exit poll projections gave them the win when, in fact, the truth was otherwise. How came we to a situation in which a system which is acknowledged by professional pollsters to be rife with flaws is held up as a better source of accurate data than the actual counting of votes?

ON EDIT: The polarized nature of the electorate is the critical aspect here. With the nation so closely divided on issues, small increments of voters can make a significant difference in outcome, as was seen in Florida in 2000. Thus, either side is likely to seize upon 'evidence' that supports their view, and if the outcome is different than desired, said 'evidence' is inevitably used to support a claim of fraud.

I'll conclude with the words of John Zogby, one of the nation's preeminent pollsters:

[quote]"I'm not sure that I will ever believe an exit poll again ... How could they have been so way off? They were worse than virtually every pre-election poll." (John Cook, "Early Exit Polls Overstated Kerry Results, Media Group Says," Chicago Tribune, 1/20/05)[/quote]

EJ
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

About Polls in genera, the only poll that counts are the ballets after the election day.

Some have argued that the use of exit polls can in itself cause false sense of assurance on election day. Look at both sides in 2004, that thought John F Kerry had a lead 1/2 way through the day.

How many of people on both sides might have stayed home or not voted? You can argue either side.

Polls before the election build that false sense of assurance that your side will win, and why should you go to vote.

Yesterday there were stories about how polls further from an election took bigger risks, while polls closer to an election, tended to show a narrow gap, or too close to call under margin of error.

Pollsters are like statistians, hard to find a one handed pollster, they always state a fact, and then say "On the other hand" , just to cover their behind.

EJ

Roger S
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator
eagleisland
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

[quote="eagleisland"]Marxist studies class. Oh, goodie.

Regardless, I would have to concur that Chavez is not a dictator - yet. He's showing clear signs in that direction, however; he uses the threat of loss of employment to ensure that government employees stay true, and he's already made clear that the can see himself in office for 20 years, despite having been responsible for term limit legislation early in his presidency.

He's not a dictator. But he shows promise. :roll:[/quote]

Wrote that several months ago.

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070110/ts_nm/venezuela_dc_8]My prediction is coming true.[/url]

Frostman
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

So he's a misunderstood dictator....?

How does one "understand" a dictator (or one showing promise)?

eagleisland
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

[quote="Frostman"]So he's a misunderstood dictator....?

How does one "understand" a dictator (or one showing promise)?[/quote]

Meaning that he is, over time, evolving from a popularly-elected official to one who IS a dictator.

Frostman
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

I know whatchya meant Sir (and couldn't agree more…).

Was making a poorly framed joke of the thread title ("Misunderstood, not a Dictator" vs "Misunderstood Dictator").

I'll try harder next time, promise...

mediadog
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

Chavez is making all the necessary moves on the way to establising a dictatorship. The most alarming is his edict bringing all television outlets under government control. And, of course, nationalizing industries, a gambit that has eventually proved to be disastrous everywhere it has been tried.

These populist decisions generally precede the assumption of complete dictatorial power.

Stavros Mendros
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

[quote="mediadog"]Chavez is making all the necessary moves on the way to establising a dictatorship. The most alarming is his edict bringing all television outlets under government control. [/quote]

Well, Jeff, if Bush did this and they still trash him the way they do, then I guess he truly is as incompetent as you say.

It always amuses me how liberals can say out of one side of their mouth that Bush is a bungling idiot, and out of the other side that he is a brilliant mastermind behind everything from single handedly destroying our democracy to flawlessly plotting and executing 9-11....

Henry Clay
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

Chavez has six years to continue to convert Venezuala into a full-fledged communist nation. He has promised to add sweeping powers to the executive office, to take powers unto himself to make him high priest, and to remove private ownership of nearly all businesses. And still Joe Kennedy adds are up in Maine talking about "our friends" in Venezuala.

eagleisland
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

Earlier in this thread, I opined that Chavez was not yet a dictator, but was headed that way. That concept was noted (with warning) in subsequent threads.

[url=http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070503/D8OT4O100.html]This story[/url] makes clear that his transition is nearly complete.

On this trajectory, summary executions will begin within a year or two, unless Chavez is taken out. I don't think that's likely to happen.

May Venezuela's collapse be short and merciful. May its resurrection be fast and reveal the genius of market economies. May Chavez's end be anything but short and merciful - and as long as we're dreaming, may it taint those US politicians who have embraced him.

That's my prayer.

On a lighter note, it appears that France will elect Sarkozy. That's fabulous news for France.

Michael Vaughan
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Not pro-league

Well,

If he's a communist, a whackjob and basically the only vestige of government present. If he's not yet a dictator, then he just hasn't graduated yet.

Apollo
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

[quote="Jeff Ferland"]I know I'm jumping into boiling water now, but Bush is doing very well at being parallel to some prominent past tyrants and dictators.

For all the ways Chavez disabled other parts of government, Bush has moved a huge amount of power into the Executive Branch, and effectively himself.

Chavez had the Enabling Act, Bush has a combination of Signing statements and unprecedented Executive Orders, and my personal favorite lassification of previously public documents. The Executive Branch now claims the right to dictate whether the Judicial branch is allowed to be invovled. We say we don't torture, but I can't imagine what waterboarding is besides torture. The right to remain silent is supposed to be sacred. While Chavez's elections have been cited as fraudulent, here in our country we have all the joy of Diebold machines which are questionable, to be put lightly. 2004 Elections resulted in vote counts in certain districts that were higher than the number of registered voters, which was never reconciled. It's rather suprising how fast we abandoned the theory of exit polls being reliable. To be considered extremely reliable for decades or longer, and then out in left field in one election and not an anomoly bearing further investigation is a curious thing.

We now have an American Government telling its courts that we can't investigate if American citizens are illegally monitored (see AT&T wiretapping case), that citizens can be declared enemy combatants, and that enemy combatatants can be held without Habeus Corpus.

Ask yourself also, if in all sincerity, is the institution of American-backed Jalal Talabani very different from that of Hugo Chavez?

You can also check out this: [url=http://digg.com/tech_news/Federal_automated_targetting_database_offlimit... URL to Digg[/url]
Which leads to [url=http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061103-8143.html?refcnx]Long link to Ars Technica[/url]
Which sites a government site: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2006/06-9026.htm -- giving us a very valid source.
(Edited to keep long links from causing page-wrap issues)[/quote]

Wow, Jeff, then why did you try to run for State House last year as a Republican?

mediadog
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UMaine Speaker: Chavez is Misunderstood not a dictator

How many countries have gone down this road and become economic basket cases? From the Soviet Union to Cuba to Zambabwe we've seen what happens when totalitarian governments control the economy.

China and Vietnam may be totalitarian states, but they are going in the opposite direction from Venezuela. Both have realized the need to free their economies from state control and it's paying off. But then, their rulers are considerably brighter than Baldacci's thuggish friend, Chavez.

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